329: Embracing Discomfort and Vulnerability: The Power of Group Therapy | Tanya Cole-Lesnick

00:00:00 Tanya: I give them different topics each time we meet. My groups, we meet every other week, and so I give them topics for the time that we meet and always invite them to bring current stuff in. So the topic might be something like anger. Let's talk about anger. When has it shown up between the last two groups? And ask them to talk about it. And then we can explore what, did anger look like when you were a kid and how was that expressed? How was that handled? 

00:00:35 Maya: This is the Healthy Lifestyle Solutions Podcast and I'm your host, Maya Acosta. If you're willing to go with me, together we can discover how simple lifestyle choices can help improve our quality of life and increase our longevity in a good way. Let's get started.

00:00:54 Maya: So welcome back, friends, to another episode of the Healthy Lifestyle Solutions Podcast. I'm your host, Maya Acosta. Today we're talking about one of my favorite topics. It's on group therapy. And we have Tanya Cole-Lesnick. She's a licensed clinical social worker and expert in group therapy, and she shares her insights on the transformative power of group therapy, why discomfort and vulnerability are necessary for personal growth, and the importance of living in alignment with your truth. We discuss how Tanya helps her clients assess their inner worlds, heal faulty narratives, and make positive changes in their lives. So you're going to want to tune in for this topic. 

00:01:37 Maya: And also a little bit more about Tanya, she has been a psychotherapist, licensed clinical social worker and coach since 1995. She received her master's degree in social work from New York University after group therapy changed her life. She has extensive experience in outpatient hospital, mental health, private practice and wellness center settings. From those experiences over the years, she has identified her most important focus, helping people to live lives that light them. She does this by helping clients to assess and honor their truth, to change habits that don't serve them, to heal faulty narratives so that they are living in alignment inside and out. Her work revolves around intimate groups as the sharing of inner worlds and being human together in a safe space in what she finds to be the most powerful ways for lives to transform. Now you'll have the full bio and the narratives to Tanya on my website, healthylifestylesolutions.org. Welcome, Tanya.

00:02:43 Tanya: Thank you, Maya. I'm so happy to be here. 

00:02:47 Maya: It's a pleasure to have you. I think you're probably the first guest I'd have on the show to address group therapy, so thank you. 

00:02:55 Tanya: Yeah, happy to talk about it.

00:02:58 Maya: So where should we start? Tell us how you became involved? In your bio, you tell us that you yourself saw a profound change in your wellness when you participated in group therapy and then you became more focused in this. 

00:03:11 Tanya: Yeah, actually, I had started my career out as a graphic designer and when I was in my mid 20s as a graphic designer going about my life. I was longing for a long term love relationship and struggling to meet somebody that I could have a lasting relationship with and started to wonder what might be in the way. And at that time, that was more than 30 years ago, I felt a lot of stigma connected to the idea of therapy. So at first, I didn't consider it as an option. I sort of dismissed my issues and decided they weren't legitimate enough as well. But with more time and sort of the pain of not really being able to connect with somebody in the way that I had longed to, became more intense. And I decided whether or not it was going to be comfortable for me. I wanted change badly enough that I explored therapy. 

00:04:12 Tanya: So I got a few names. I got connected to a therapist, Bonnie, who was amazing. And I felt very supported right away. I felt emotionally safe to start sharing my story with her. And then very early on, she suggested I add group therapy to the mix. The thought of that really terrified me. I was being much more vulnerable with Bonnie than I had been with anybody really before then. But I was building some trust with her. She thought it would be helpful. I really did long for change and I was sort of intrigued, so I decided to go ahead and give it a try. And I did. And it was not easy at times, although at other times, it felt very sort of warm to be connecting to these people at a very human level. It was challenging too, and I learned a lot about myself. And it was in that experience that I started to realize that, what I had been explaining to myself.

00:05:20 Tanya: So because I hadn't been having a long term love relationship and I was trying to figure out what was in the way, the explanation I gave myself was maybe I wasn't lovable. And so I went into this group situation being worried that maybe I would find that out to be true, that I wasn't lovable. And with some time in connecting to other people, started to realize that people I built some admiration towards were struggling with some similar insecurities. And I could see that they were amazing people. So it got me thinking about my own worries about being flawed. And I kind of switched that narrative into, it's not that I'm flawed, it's just that I'm human and it helped me really get much more comfortable in my own skin. And then when I went out into the world, people were starting to connect to me differently because I was more comfortable in my own skin. 

00:06:23 Tanya: And pretty soon after that, I met several men. But one of the men that I met along the way became my husband. And he and I ended up celebrating our 30th wedding anniversary in September. So certainly that's a long term love relationship, that part happened, but what I hadn't anticipated was how much I would connect to myself, how much I would learn to love myself, how much I would learn about needs and honoring that and setting boundaries and things like that. And from that place, I decided this is big, important work. And I went back to school and became a therapist at that point and dedicated my own life to helping other people have transformations of their own. 

00:07:14 Maya: That's beautiful. I'm curious to know how long you've had the group therapy portion of it in place. You've been practicing for quite a while. Do you do individual coaching as well, or is it mainly group therapy? 

00:07:29 Tanya: I do both. I do individual and group, although… so my work, I've done private practice. I've worked for other people. Very recently, 2022, I started private practice again. I had been working for somebody else in a wellness center prior to that and coming back into it, really more interested in having, group be the cornerstone of the work that I do and individual work being connected to that. But I really do a lot of both. I've been doing group. That is a good question. I mean, I think I've been doing group from the start. Some of it has been groups in clinic settings or hospital settings, which is very different than doing group on your own. But I've always done group and I've always done, whenever possible, multiple groups. And they have evolved over the years as well. So the group that exists for me now is just different from some of the groups that I did in the past. 

00:08:34 Maya: Right. And I feel like we're sort of living in a culture that's becoming more and more open as we talk about mental health and being okay when it comes to asking for help. One of the limiting beliefs that you touched on for you was, I'm not lovable. For me, it's always been, I'm not good enough. So if you like to talk about where these beliefs come from, we are our worst enemies in many ways. The seed gets planted along the way somewhere, and then we just live the rest of our lives just having this self-talk that can be very damaging. Why is it important to be vulnerable? It's scary to be vulnerable, and yet it's one of the most effective things that can help transform a person's life. 

00:09:25 Tanya: Yeah, I think what you were saying about the limiting beliefs, a seed has been planted. So for many of us, it's from the families that we grew up in, the culture that we grew up in as well. For some people, it might be some experiences later on in life also that can get some limiting beliefs going, but often it's the families we grew up in. And so for me, not feeling lovable perhaps was also connected to the fact that I had a workaholic father who wasn't home all the time and so as kids we make up stories about sort of how to understand what's going on and often make ourselves the cause of certain things. And I also had a mother who would lose her temper periodically. So all of those stories kind of went together and became the messaging that I incorporated into my own understanding of what might be going on.

00:10:28 Tanya: Now, the thing is, some of this stuff becomes protective, most of this stuff is protective. So deciding, oh, maybe there's something wrong with me. It got me curating how I presented myself to the world. So the more protected version was me thinking okay, if I'm not very lovable, I'd better just show the lovable parts of myself. And so everything was getting filtered through my mind and I was strategizing all the time about how I would show up in the world and that impacted me energetically. But that kind of, for any of us, that can really impact us when we spend a lot of time in our minds thinking through and not being comfortable in our own skin that way. 

00:11:20 Tanya: And so it was bit of a self fulfilling prophecy in that I was worried I wasn't lovable and so I was trying to present myself in a very specific way and being very choosy about what I allowed to be seen but then very noticeably not comfortable in my own skin. People can feel that. And so I think that was something that led to me being disconnected from people, from myself certainly, and then from other people. So the vulnerable part is looking at that, taking more risk, deciding that okay, maybe it's not true, but emotionally, often it has to catch up to what we've decided intellectually in our minds.

00:12:09 Tanya: So maybe I can decide, oh, it's not true that I'm not lovable. But as I may be saying something that sounds like I would have censored it in the past, I start to feel a little bit nervous. That feels vulnerable, I mean, that's what happens. And then I feel a little bit not protected because some of these things have been in place, because they've been protective for us. And so starting to take a little bit more risk is part of that vulnerability stuff and those are new muscles to strengthen and we're not used to it and there's reasons why it got developed. So that's part of the discomfort that can start to unravel that story that wasn't even true. 

00:12:56 Maya: Very true. In the sense, very true what you're saying. So I have these ideas of who I am, right, how I judge myself and I'm hoping that you won't see that.

00:13:09 Tanya: That's right. 

00:13:10 Maya: Because I'm so self critical, I hope you cannot see what I believe about myself. And so the whole thing is just like I'm arming myself with more things to hurt myself with in some ways. I want to tell our listeners why it's important to have these conversations on the podcast. I talk about various topics associated with the field of lifestyle medicine that includes food, exercise, stress management, building healthy relationships. But my journey towards wellness didn't start with exercise and eating healthy. It started with doing inner work. And one of my first experiences with group therapy was in high school. I was very disturbed in high school. My school counselor was the one that said, hey, I have this thing I can do on Fridays. And she pulled a small group of us from our classes. And that was an understanding we had with our teachers, was that we could have the support, a safe place to talk about things that were happening as we were growing up in our homes. And I went on to want to pursue the field of therapy. I wanted to do this kind of work.

00:14:21 Maya: And a few years ago, I experienced a more profound experience in group therapy and then wanted to train to become a facilitator. Because I'm not a therapist, I'm not trained in this field. But it's that whole awareness of how effective this can be that I allow you to see my weakness, what I'm battling with. And then depending, because I don't know if yours are… if you do them over the course of one weekend or you repeatedly bring your group together, but the relationships, the bonds that you build with people that you can be vulnerable with is just incredible because it's different compared to like our close family members and friends. So, yeah, I just wanted to kind of paint a little bit of a picture, give a little bit of a background for listeners that are tuning in for the first time, perhaps that it's important that I continue to kind of foster this on the podcast as well. Not just focus on the other lifestyle changes that we can make to be healthy, but really finding outlets and really experts like yourself that can continue to help us to do the work. 

00:15:37 Tanya: Yeah, and even you said the word weakness and I would love to change that for humanness because I think we all have different things that we need some extra support around. And I do both. I do ongoing groups and those are all virtual, but then I do, also some in person weekend retreats. I actually have one coming up soon. But you're so right about the relationships that form when you share that part of yourself with other people. It's so special. There's something about that kind of relationship that nothing else really looks like that. And especially if there's some community and so that there's a number of people that are kind of on your team, on your side, want to celebrate you, want to give you feedback if there's something that they sort of notice you're struggling with and they can offer you a perspective. Whatever it is, I think it's so healing.

00:16:42 Tanya: And really those are a deep reset retreat. So it's like a weekend to really go deep, figuring out what some of the limiting beliefs are, what some patterns are that are in your way, and then starting to paint a picture of what you really do want for yourself and explore ways to support each other through that. And we do something that's interesting. It's another wonderful therapist and I, Catherine Anesi, we run the retreats together and we do something that's a little bit different in that we have a group first, a virtual group first, then we have our weekend retreat and then we have a couple of weeks later, another group. Because I think that is something that doesn't always get just taken care of, the way that people can stay connected in the work. Because what can happen is they have this beautiful weekend of going deep and doing some transforming and then keeping in touch is sort of up to everybody. But creating a space where we can come together can be really, I think, a helpful way to help that depth continue forward. 

00:17:59 Maya: Okay, you're right, I hadn't heard of that, where you sort of have, like a follow up in a sense, after the physical in person experience. You lightly touched on boundaries. And so I'd love for you to kind of talk a little bit more about that. And also codependency. And I didn't see this listed as a topic, but I feel that many people misuse that term, don't really understand what codependency means and then why boundaries are important to protect our energy, to protect ourselves from things that can sort of affect us profoundly.

00:18:37 Tanya: For sure. So let me start with boundaries. I mean, boundaries definitely are something that gets talked about a lot and it can be very difficult to do because it's choosing yourself. And if you have a limiting belief that says, for example, I've talked a lot about my own work through people pleasing tendencies and that's something that I've had to pay very close attention to in my life and to not go into automatic pilot with some of that. Because if I'm not mindful about it, I can very easily say yes to other people without checking in first with myself and decide if it's a real genuine yes or not. And so boundaries could very easily go against some of these limiting beliefs. So if you're somebody who feels like you need to say yes, or you're going to get abandoned, for example, then it can be really hard to say, okay, I'm going to say no because that's not honoring myself to say yes to this thing. But that's another example of discomfort that couldn't come up. 

00:19:43 Tanya: And so getting clear even about what kind of boundaries are going to honor you is a really important part. Paying attention to when are you feeling resentful? That's a real good clue into when perhaps you've said yes to something that you would rather say no to. And people, I think, sometimes don't realize how much control they have over the things that they feel resentful about and even setting boundaries with ourselves. I know for myself. Another thing that I've been working on for myself is my own pressure. I put myself under sometimes when I'm doing my work. And I think, oh, I better hurry up and finish this thing, and you better move more quickly. And you have all these goals and you've got to move really fast to get, reach all the goals that you have. And I'm upset with myself before I even start, as if my moving forward is never the right pace. And so a boundary that I've set with myself is I'm not going to talk to myself that way as I'm doing my work. I'm going to honor that my pace is a fine pace and I am going to catch myself if I have that very critical voice and set a boundary around that. So that's another example even, that we can set boundaries with ourselves even.

00:21:07 Maya: Yeah, I'm the hardest critic. I'm my own worst enemy in some ways and critic, but I have started to do that as well, Tanya. When I have a deadline for a project that other people may not even know about, so it might not affect people, necessarily. And I don't meet the deadline, I don't accomplish my goal. I feel upset and I'm starting to say to myself, it's okay, I'm doing the best that I can. It's okay. Because my energy, for example, feeling physically depleted and overwhelmed from being overworked takes its toll. I can only do so much. 

00:21:45 Tanya: That's right. 

00:21:45 Maya: And then I need a break. So that's really tricky in the society and the culture that we live in. 

00:21:52 Tanya: Yeah, we still celebrate workaholism, we celebrate, sort of moms who do it all or are selfless, that kind of thing. And even, what you're describing, I think that there is some expectation that we have to be able to do more than what would really be sort of a balanced version of ourselves if we were to allow balance to be the priority rather than the to do list or the accomplishments. It would be interesting to see what would happen to everybody's pace. But getting depleted and sort of living in a way where getting depleted is just an ongoing, constant way of living is true for so many of us. And I mean, just back to this question about setting boundaries. Sometimes it's like following yourself for a while to figure it out, even to learn, well, what is my pace? I've been for so long working at this other pace, it's not even my own. What does my pace look like? And to allow yourself to be more comfortable as you're moving through life and what is that like? And to learn from that so we can all learn about ourselves when we check in first with ourselves. 

00:23:12 Maya: Yeah, I have a coach that I work with. I see her every week. So I'm always wondering, will there be one session where it's just, I'm good. Nothing to talk about. But I'm not there yet. A lot of work to do. And the reason I bring that up is because of something that you just said, which suddenly slipped my mind as I was thinking about that. Oh, you know what it is? It's related to how we speak to ourselves now. I say limiting beliefs. My coach says the story that I'm telling myself, the story that I'm running because in that sense, I'm using these lenses when I'm in that moment of, I'm viewing life with these glasses or however, how do you address that? What do you call that? And how do you work with patients or clients to change the perspective that they're experiencing at that moment? 

00:24:12 Tanya: Yeah, I actually use both as well. I use limiting beliefs. I'll talk about it in that way and I see them a little bit differently. But there's definitely overlap. And I'll remind a client or sort of give them feedback if they're responding to something that they don't even know for sure, they're making up a story about what they think somebody else's reaction is to them, for example. Right. So I can help the client just pause for a second and remind them. But you don't know that for sure. And the client will say, right, I don't, and so it's a story, and remind them that that's a version of what I've been calling recently, this idea of energetic clutter. And I think that's an example of what energetic clutter is, because you can spend a lot of time in that space trying to make up why somebody's doing the things they're doing, what they meant by certain things. But unless we know, our stories don't really mean anything and we can only know if they choose to tell us.

00:25:19 Tanya: Yeah, and so having a reminder about what is a story and working on letting that go and even having a bit of a mantra, oh, that's just a story as we catch ourselves, if that's a pattern that we realize that we get into again and again, that could be a very specific thing to work on. Oh, I have this tendency to make up stories about what I think other people are thinking, and I don't know the truth to that. And Brené Brown, the amazing woman that researches shame and vulnerability tells a story about some thing with her husband where she was making up a story, he was making up a story and they were both having this emotional experience that had nothing to do with the other person, only with the story that they were each making up. So checking in with each other about that and being even able to use those words and say, well, I'm making up a story of whatever it is, and say, is there truth to that? Because that's where I'm going and being honest about that can be really helpful.

00:26:26 Maya: Okay, so you say making up a story, but I have found myself in moments with my husband where there's tension as we're talking about something. And because we both have this making up a story about, we're carrying this, sometimes we could actually have a tense moment in conversation because we both have a misunderstanding about what we're talking about. And it's happened to us several times where I'll stop when it's turning into an argument and I'll stop and I'll say, wait a minute, what are you talking about? Are we talking about the same topic? And then he's like, no, I thought you were talking about that transaction you were supposed to do. And I was like, I thought you were asking me about this and that. But it becomes tense because we're driven by the story that we're telling ourselves and so we automatically look for evidence of that story. 

00:27:25 Tanya: I love that. And pausing and checking it out really is the way to handle it because what else are you going to do? If you are feeling upset and you want to see whether there is something that needs to get worked out between the two of you, it'd be important to make sure that you're on the same page. 

00:27:44 Maya: You've said that sometimes we have resentment when we haven't set those boundaries. And that's sort of the first sign that we know we violated our own boundaries. In a sense, we haven't set a strong boundary and we feel resentful. Is anger part of it? When I'm feeling angry about a situation because it could be a situation or an individual, I'm feeling angry. Is it part of it because I didn't set a boundary but also because I didn't speak my truth? 

00:28:19 Tanya: I mean, it totally could be and also maybe not. I mean, anger is a real thing and a real emotion that we can experience. And sometimes it is that, that we're not taking care of ourselves and we're angry about the way we're treated even though we're not honoring ourselves. So we can be angry at ourselves about that. We can be angry at the other person, but it's really not fair to be angry at another person if we haven't done a good job of communicating, sort of what we need for sure. But sometimes anger can come up for legit reasons that somebody is maybe behaving in a way that crosses a boundary that we have been clear about. 

00:29:05 Maya: I've had some real cathartic group experiences, so I guess it depends on the coach, the individual that's guiding the therapy, the group. But I've allowed myself through these experiences to let out the things that I wish I could have said to the abuser. And so sometimes I wonder, well, I guess the reason I'm even asking is because I'm wondering what does your group therapy look like? Do you model that with each other? Do your clients model or practice asking for their needs and their wants?

00:29:42 Tanya: Yeah, usually the way it works in my groups is, yes, they start to identify. I give them different topics each time we meet, my groups, we meet every other week. And so I give them topics for the time that we meet and always invite them to bring current stuff in. So the topic might be something like anger. Let's talk about anger. When has it shown up between the last two groups? And ask them to talk about it, and then we can explore what did anger look like when you were a kid and how was that expressed, how was that handled, and also how did you handle it this time? And so let's say all of that discussion happens and the anger is lingering. It's not something that got addressed, it's something that got neglected. Somebody just said, okay, well, we stopped talking for a bit, and then we acted like it just didn't happen. Then, yes, we can practice. How would you talk about it? What do you want to say about that? And help the person start to formulate, what would their boundary look like, what would their conversation to whoever it is look like? And start getting clear for their own language. 

00:31:03 Tanya: I always feel like it's really important for people to use whatever language resonates for them, because if it doesn't have resonance, it's not going to sort of feel as comfortable, even though it is uncomfortable, but it's not going to feel as true to them, it's not going to feel as comfortable. So helping people find their own language that they can use, practice a little bit, and then we're celebrating each person so as they come back, we're very eager to hear, how did it go? And check in, and we're there with you. And one of the things that's so great about group two is even though we're not with the people, when they're starting to do some of the things that they were practicing in group, they often because this is certainly my experience, and we've talked about it also in group, you kind of feel like you have your team of people with you, even though they're not really there. So it feels safer to start taking some of these steps when you know that there are people sort of rooting for you in that very specific way. 

00:32:07 Maya: And when you say even though they're not with you, are you talking about the online group? 

00:32:12 Tanya: Well, what I mean is, let's say somebody's practicing what they want to say to their partner in, group, so then they leave, group and they're going to go say it, that they still know that we're there even though we're not actually there. But I think there's a real sense of I've got a team with me. Which is–

00:32:29 Maya: That's right.

00:32:30 Tanya: It's a wonderful feeling. Yeah. 

00:32:33 Maya: I remember my coach had me once practice saying, no.

00:32:38 Tanya: Love it.

00:32:40 Maya: And she said louder, and this time, use your body. So I'm like, no. And so, Tanya, I think what was so surprising to me is I don't know that I ever say that way. I don't think I've ever said no to anybody the way that I was trained as we were practicing the whole experience of how I would say no to someone. And what dawned on me is the only being that I say no to, like, that is my dog. 

00:33:10 Tanya: Interesting, yeah.

00:33:11 Maya: And so there's fear associated with saying no. There's that fear of rejection, the fear being judged. And I'm talking about no as being part of the boundary that you're setting. 

00:33:26 Tanya: For sure, yeah.

00:33:26 Maya: A lot of fear.

00:33:27 Tanya: Yeah. And I think people often will question, oh, is my no, legit enough? Do I really want to say this, no? I think sometimes people struggle with feeling clear enough to do the hard no because it's not easy. And without some clarity of like, no, I need to do it. Not just you, but any of us might struggle to take that step. And you had asked me about the codependent piece as well, so I just wanted to touch on that a little bit because you were, I think, trying to understand it a little better, even. What does codependence really mean? And I think it's when people kind of get their needs met through other people in a way that's unhealthy. One of the most common ways is when somebody has a substance abuse issue and then somebody else is sort of enabling it and sort of setting things up. Maybe apologizing for that person or maybe protecting time and space where that person might be drunk or something where they're not kind and they're kind of protecting them from having consequences for that kind of thing. And somebody might feel good about being sort of saving this person who's struggling and somebody else is leaning on that person and communicating, you're the best. You're amazing. Thank you. Or something like that, where they're both getting other needs met through this very entangled relationship. So it's like a real dependence on each other and these sort of needs that are not really about having a full human experience, but it becomes this.

00:35:17 Maya: Right. And it's almost like the codependent individual is putting the other person's needs first. But in many ways, a codependent person can manipulate in some ways to keep that person the way they are. It's a very tricky topic. I know that I'm codependent or I have those tendencies. And I went to one of those codependent anonymous groups, and it didn't quite work for me. Other forms of therapy work, but I felt very gaslighted, like people were saying, that person's doing this to you, you got to go back. Just raising my… I was experiencing a lot of stress as a result, and I just thought, this is not good for me. So now what do you think in your experience, what helps clients move forward towards the changes that they long for and what keeps them stuck? 

00:36:14 Tanya: Yeah, I think probably the way in is, usually pain points. So if client is feeling irritable all the time, losing their temper or using substances as a way to self medicate and not just substances, it could be different forms of numbing out behaviors, scrolling on your phone or watching a lot of TV or something like that, that is interfering with life being a full joyful experience. And not that life is joyful 24/7, but it does interfere with that. So that's often where people come in, I'm struggling with this piece, I feel irritable all the time, whatever it is. And then what I do with my clients is help them start to track, when is this stuff coming up for them so that we can get a fuller picture. What are some of the things, why are you so depleted? What is some of that? And so we can start to learn. Well, they had this expectation of perfectionism growing up as a kid and so doing really well in school and excelling in career was always the expectation. And then sort of not being able to rest until they're done with some of the stuff that was required to keep that perfectionism going and not being able to, figuring out what we need, honor ourselves, rest, things like that. 

00:37:49 Tanya: So starting to help people pinpoint, what is it for you, what's the story for you? Once awareness starts to grow and the understanding of the limiting beliefs, the different stories start to become more clear. We can catch it in action. And then when we can catch it in action, we can start to respond. And at first, it's a response, afterwards probably. So let's say somebody has identified, oh my gosh, I don't let myself rest, I get so depleted and then they try to allow a little bit more rest. Okay, I'm going to end my work day at whatever time, let myself rest. That's usually going to be hard at first, but this is the goal and they try it and then we learn. Well, what comes up for you? What are some of the thoughts and feelings that come up as you're trying to go against some of this automatic pilot that used to be in place, very connected to some of these limiting beliefs, and start to set different goals so that somebody can start to shift some of these patterns. But there's a real trial and error period there. And the learning that happens when we do action is really important. We can't just think our way into the change. We have to start actually physically making some changes, feel what happens in our bodies as these changes start to get made, and then learn from what we get up against after we are feeling challenged, bringing up more anxiety or more fear, and then learning from that. 

00:39:37 Tanya: And then there's like a settling down that can start to happen. The more we get to know ourselves and the more we can kind of see some of these patterns in play, the more we're going to be able to take a step that feels more grounding, that we know that we're going to be okay. I talked earlier about my own people pleasing tendencies. One of the ways that I noticed I really get into people pleasing had been in the past, accommodating clients’ schedules at times when it didn't honor my own. And the more I recognized that that was a tendency that I had, the less it kind of became a thing that I did. I might have the impulse, but I can catch myself and make a different choice. It doesn't feel as scary anymore. I kind of know all the reasons. So it's a real process of peeling away the layers, learning about ourselves, and starting to take some steps and dealing with some of the discomfort until we start to kind of get more comfortable with all of that. 

00:40:48 Maya: There is some slight discomfort, but it's like anything else I'm learning. The more that I say no or I'll pass or whatever it may be, the more that I speak my truth, the more that it feels like it's okay. And again, I guess it comes back to, at least in my situation, the story I'm telling myself when I get rid of the story, it's just the situation that I'm dealing with. 

00:41:11 Tanya: That's right. 

00:41:13 Maya: Yeah. You start to talk about this being aligned with your truth. And in my life, I've met a handful of individuals who walk in their truth and speak their truth and have nice boundaries. These people are like role models to me, like what I aspire to be. It's just a different sort of interaction when someone lives in their truth. So what does living in alignment with your truth mean? And why is it so important? 

00:41:47 Tanya: Yeah, I think I mean, if we go back to that idea of energetic clutter that I was talking about before, when somebody's living in alignment, they have much less of that energetic clutter kind of slowing them down, interfering with their flow in their lives. When somebody lives in alignment, there's almost something sparkly about them because they're in flow with their life in a way that really connects to them and resonates for them. And there's something very present. And I'm guessing this is probably what you experience with these people you have in mind that you've known in your life about people who have lived in alignment. Energetically, we can almost feel it when we're near those people. And so there is some kind of even maximizing energy because you're in this flow, you have a certain amount of momentum. You're honoring yourself, so you're not doing some of the things that can be depleting because you're catching yourself. Not that you never get depleted, but if you get depleted when you're in alignment, it's usually based on a decision that you've made, oh, that's going to take a lot of energy, but I'm going to choose it because you have your eyes wide open about why you're making the choices that you make. And you're always checking in and deciding whether or not something honors you and is it something that is in alignment with what matters to you? And that's part of this ongoing process. As somebody is living in alignment, there's a real connection to themselves when people prioritize that piece, that piece of alignment. 

00:43:33 Maya: Yeah. It's a form of self care, too, to say, hey, this is what is true for me. It's a beautiful thing. We started with your story, Tanya, of initially you sharing how group therapy was very effective for you, and as a result, this journey brought you to do really the work that you're doing today. I once heard, probably when I was in training, to also facilitate group therapy, I once heard someone say that a therapist is only as effective as the work that he or she does on themselves. So you do that as well. I said walk the talk or anyway.

00:44:19 Tanya: Right.

00:44:21 Maya: How important is it that you practice what you preach so that your clients can continue to grow as well? 

00:44:29 Tanya: I think it's critical. I mean, I don't think the work can really happen if I don't, because there's a certain way that I communicate about myself as I do the work. That's different if I'm sort of blocked in some way and covered up. And that is part of how I work with people. I'm always very transparent with people. I do share when I'm on a certain journey. And I think that there's something that's helpful for people as they realize they're working with somebody who's human and that that human stuff is just always part of it. And if we can embrace that rather than feeling like, okay, hurry up, am I done yet? Am I done yet? I think you were talking about that earlier, right? Almost feeling like, oh, one day I'll be done. But instead, if we realize we're always growing, we're always learning, there's always going to be another piece to focus on as we have different experiences in our lives and as we evolve. And so I think as I go through my own periods of growth or transition or whatever it is and can connect with clients about some of those experiences as well, it just gives us all a richer experience. And people, I think, in that, feel seen if they felt like, oh, I figured out my life, I don't have any issues. Then there becomes this hierarchy where I'm kind of above and they're below, and there's something like, oh, I've got life figured out, but they don't. But that's just not the way it goes. 

00:46:07 Maya: Yeah, absolutely. And it becomes easier to look you in the eyes, directly in the eyes in a group setting or in person, because the same thing you have shown that you're human and you experiencing these difficulties and overcoming them is a living example of that. What you're teaching actually will work for your clients as well. How different is the dynamic when you do offer the group via Zoom, for example? 

00:46:39 Tanya: Yeah, I've been doing the virtual groups, of course, since COVID but I did do a few virtual groups even before COVID. I actually really like them and feel like there's not a lot lost. I know that a lot of people are like, no, I just like in person, but maybe there's a little bit of body language loss. But I'll tell you what you do get when it's up front and center and it's somebody's face, you can see some nuance in the facial expressions that you don't necessarily see, in the, in person. And we also get to see people in their home environments. And so sometimes that gives just a little bit more layering of what we get to know about somebody as we're doing it. But the work itself, it feels just as powerful to me. I mean, I love in person, but there's something too about the convenience of being able to connect, from people that are further away. You don't have to have the commuting and I can work with people anywhere. So that's really helpful, I think, in creating community.

00:47:49 Maya: Yes, you're right. By the time we release this episode, your April retreat will have gone, will have already happened. But did I hear you say that you are working towards having more retreats later this year? 

00:48:05 Tanya: Yeah, so retreats and groups, I mean, I know I was saying I really want my work to be mostly groups with individuals, supplementing that and retreats as part of that. I think retreats are amazing growing experiences and absolutely. I've already done a bunch of retreats, but I want to step that up and do probably a couple every year at least, if not more. And so absolutely stay tuned and I'll start to post some of the pictures from this retreat and videos so people can sort of get a flavor of what the retreats are like. It is so special. 

00:48:45 Maya: Where are they held?

00:48:47 Tanya: The one that we're doing this time around, we still have been doing them kind of locally. So this one is in Cold Spring, New York, but there's a lot of conversation about traveling. Maybe Florida, we’ll do one and just exploring different areas, but for now it's been, New York area. But stay tuned. 

00:49:10 Maya: Tanya, is there anything else that you'd like to share with my listeners about the work that you're doing and also how can they best learn about you? 

00:49:18 Tanya: Yeah, I feel like that is it for now. But probably the best way to learn about me is to go to my website, which I have an easy to remember URL, which is clearenergeticclutter.com and on there, actually, I have a little documentary that I made that's just 10 minutes long. And it is about the story that I shared about how group therapy changed my life. So I'm really proud of it. And if anybody wants to check that out, I would love that, and I would love to connect to anybody interested in pursuing really any kind of support. But I do have a free discovery session that somebody can schedule themselves on my website if they're interested in talking about group and learning a little bit more about how that would work for them specifically.

00:50:13 Maya: Yes. And do you ever, since you say a little bit of and I don't know how I missed your short documentary, do you have testimonials on there? Do you ever have people that have gone through your program that share what this has done for them? 

00:50:27 Tanya: I don't have testimonials in video form, but I do have written testimonials on my website, so yeah. 

00:50:35 Maya: Okay. Well, this has been awesome. I really want to encourage my listeners to go out and check you out. I'm going to put the link in the show notes, but definitely reach out to Tanya. I mean, I believe in this work, and I'm just so honored that I had the opportunity to speak with you, Tanya. 

00:50:51 Tanya: Oh, thank you, Maya. And I loved our conversation and connecting with you, and I love the work that you do, and it makes me happy to really connect with people who are in alignment with some of what matters most to us to bring to the world. 

00:51:07 Maya: That's right. Thank you so much. 

00:51:08 Tanya: Thank you.

00:51:09 Maya: You've been listening to the Healthy Lifestyle Solutions Podcast with your host, Maya Acosta. If you've enjoyed this content, please share with one friend who can benefit. You can also leave us a five star review at ratethpodcast.com/HLS. This helps us to spread our message. As always, thank you for being a listener.